By Mike In Ohio

March 30, 2008 3:17 AM | Link to this

sounds like a bunch of religious wackos bickering. if they’re not attacking everyone else they’re attacking each other. KARMA ROCKS !

By peterson

March 30, 2008 3:42 AM | Link to this

I wonder if the accrediting bodies would approve such a regime of religious education if this were… say a Muslim institution? But somehow Christian fanaticism is acceptable in this country, no matter how many young minds are are twisted in the process. A university that adopts the purposeful denial of rational thought does not deserve accreditation and is a dangerous sham.

By Stephen Bickford

March 30, 2008 5:28 AM | Link to this

You’d have to be a nut case to believe those fairy tales in the first place. So, they got fired for believing the fairy tales are real. Cedarville is really starting to confuse me. I don’t know which side of the ark is up. The Bible contradicts itself so many times and includes so much nonsense that it’s like IRS tax advice.

By Mary

March 30, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

Well, ditto to just about everything said here. Having grown up in the Bible Belt and observing the irrational hypocrisy throughout my growing up years, I sometimes think religious institutions are a major threat to democratic freedoms. Maybe the Bible studies department should have embraced the conflict as intellectually healthy and educational. Religions seem to want everyone on a short leash and no independent thought. That is why I try to stay away. My freedom of speech and thought trumps religous affiliation any day of the week.

By HDT

March 30, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

It is very naive to state that evangelical Christians are “supremely respectful” of each other. Is it “supremely respectful” to fire someone without just cause in the middle of summer? Is it “supremely respectful” to fire faculty members who have just been given new contracts? The nasty little secret about Cedarville is how their religion is intolerant, and how judgmental they are of others. It sounds like Cedarville needs to revisit the New Testament, and it’s goal of spreading the gospel to all.

By Stephanie

March 30, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

If Cedarville University continues down the path of the Emergent Church Movement, it will be to their own demise. Like all false, unbiblical doctrines, their house will not stand on the sand.

By Gary

March 30, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this

Stephanie, How would you know that the Cedarville grievance committee found in favor of the fired prof? Isn’t that information part of the documents seized by the administration? Could you post that document if you have it?

By John

March 30, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

I find that the title ‘fundamentalist’ isn’t quite accurate; while those standing up to the emergent tide at CU are obviously more to the right than their opposition, I once had Dr. Hoffeditz in class and I remember when he spent an entire session denouncing the lack of love found in fundamentalism. The unprofessional and illegal actions by any administration that would revoke contracts reveal where the real lack of love is. Regardless, I’d look here for further updates: http://www.cedarvillesituation.com and http://www.cedarvillesituation.com/links.htm Thank you!

By Maureen

March 30, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

Any professor who would spend a whole class session ranting, about anything, instead of teaching the students about what they paid to learn, is displaying not only a lack of love, but a lack of fiduciary respect that I find shocking. I realize it’s also par for the course in every sort of college and university, but that doesn’t make it better. One would hope that a Christian college would have a higher standard.

By HDT

March 30, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

Here’s another example of “supremely respectful” behavior… “Cedarville Professor’s may attend churches which disagree with the doctrinal position of the University.” Oh no! It’s America, and these professors have just now been given permission to attend the church of their choice. Does the author of this article call this behavior “supremely respectful”?

By Stephanie Gottschlich

March 30, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

I appreciate everyone jumping in with good questions. To Gary, who asked how I knew the grievance panel sided with Mr. Hoffeditz: I’m pretty sure I say this in the story, but I got that fact from Mr. Hoffeditz. He posted statements on his personal website about their recommendation he be reinstated. So no, I haven’t seen the grievance panel papers - this is according to Mr. Hoffeditz. The university has the only copy of the record of that hearing. Mr. Hoffeditz removed those statements from his website along with a university email (about their demand of the records in custody of the grievance panel members) on Wednesday, March 18. Mr. Hoffeditz told me he took them down (though this is stated on his website too) after getting a letter from the university threatening him with legal action. He disagrees with their demand to remove the statements, but thought it best to take them down because they all might be involved in litigation. One other note: When I say that evangelical Christians are usually supremely respectful of each other, what I meant was that this one of their tenets. Christian faculty in particular - in fact they’re required to be at Cedarville, where it’s clearly stated in their handbook. Whether or not some adhere to those tenets - well, maybe that’s what people are wondering here. Also, to non-evangelical Christians: “Fundamentalism” is perhaps an oversimplified word for the evangelical Christians who hold to the Bible’s fundamentals literally. I welcome anyone here who can elaborate further on the differences between the emerging church movement and fundamentalism, as I had limited space in the story. This is a scholarly debate with entire websites and volumes dedicated to it.

By cma

March 30, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

Stephanie, it was with great interest that I read your article and appreciate your very balanced approach. I see Cedarville U. through a slightly different lens…as a parent who is paying for my child’s tuition to go there. We are not Baptist, but we are Christian and my daughter became familiar with Cedarville while in high school and asked if she could go there. She has had these prof’s in previous years and attests to the high quality of their teaching ability and thought-provoking classes. She, and other students, are very disappointed in the loss of these gentlemen. I have tried to help her understand the points you address in your comment above, specifically that there may be “behind the scenes” elements that have not come to light, and maybe never will. This is tough for idealistic college-age young adults to grasp. What is important for all to keep in mind, in spite of the uninformed comments in earlier posts, is that similar outcomes can occur in secular schools and in the business world, too, not just (Christian) academia. For instance, in my job should I have to discipline an employee (which I do), I cannot share that information with other employees, for the privacy of the disciplined employee trumps their right to know what happened. Similarly, egregious behavior by an employee can result in termination without any prior counseling or disciplinary action. It seems that not everyone understands that. I hope that in this instance the action of Cedarville U’s leadership will be determined to be just and reasonable based on appropriate standards. If not, then not only do you have a followup, but as a parent of a Cedarville student I would hope for appropriate accountability. Cedarville University is an excellent school…and now the students are getting a lesson in life from a different perspective. Please keep your objective stories coming on this matter. Thanks!

By FinallyavoiceofReason.

March 30, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Cedarville college is just down the road from Antioch (Yellow Springs) which is currently experiencing its own difficulties.The problems that both institutions are facing could be eliminated if the two could find a natural mid ground, perhaps in Clifton, and establish a new institution of higher learning. Like a magnificent blend that arises from the marriage of two stark contrasts, the ultra right winged orthodox fanatical neo-cons of Cedarville could combine forces with the leftist liberal, socialist pinkos of Antioch to create a new education system that has true investigation and learning as its guiding principles, rather than the perpetuation of narrow, self-serving ideologies.There could finally be a balance in that cauldron of the buckeye state that could better serve the common good. And for crying out loud, have a football team at the new institution. That is the fundamental reason the two colleges are currently experiencing problems, no football team. A college without a football team? Scandalous! Finally, a voice of reason.

By mark

March 30, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

Little by little rational thought and freedom seems to erode the power and irrationality of organized religion. Just like mental illness may never be completely irradicated, neither will the mental illness of religion. Just look around at how much havoc it causes the human race.

By Freedom of Speech?

March 30, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

Below is a link I found circulating the Internet of Bob Milliman meeting with students regarding the current issues at Cedarville University. The sound clip last about 1 hour and 45 minutes. Apparently this link has been on many sights however, Cedarville must have some pull as they are pulled down in less than 12 hours. So much for freedom of speech. In the recording Bob Milliman states Cedarville did not fire the professors until after the accreditation process was completed due to fear of fallout. Also in the recording Bob Milliman states that he is “the boss” and he made the decision, now apparently “the boss” misspoke. Was Bob lying then or is Bob lying now? What is Cedarville trying so desperately trying to hide? I am not familiar with Dr. Hoffeditz nor Dr Mapes as professors, nor have I ever met them. I find this whole thing incredibly interesting and look forward to seeing how a Christian institution plays this out. http://dodownload.filefront.com/9889484//7ab4e4ba7aaddb6de3fe4998fc80ca267771fda491af41290a2e5702b00661d041c373375eb6189f

By HDT

March 30, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this

I doubt that the administration at Cedarville University knows the meaning of free speech in America. They have been stifling free speech for a long, long time. This is another example of the evangelical version of “supremely respectful” behavior. The Cedarvile Administration must have found dirty tricks in their latest edition of the Bible.

By Cheryl

March 30, 2008 6:22 PM | Link to this

Okay folks, lets see how long the above link stays up before The Cedarville Gestapo makes The Dayton Daily remove it!

By Richard

March 30, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this

I’m still looking for where Cain’s wife came from, in the mythical land of Nod, east of Eden. Would hate to teach a science class at that college. Must be interesting. Don’t see how this story merits space in the DDN.

By HDT

March 30, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

wow, Cheryl, you really missed the point. No one ever said that the Cedarville Administration held sway or influence over the DDN….simply, these controlling, evangelical extremists seek to stifle free speech at their little colony of intolerance in northern Greene County. Are you, Cheryl, another the apologists for these “christians” who have found dirty tricks to be Biblical?

By student

March 30, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this

I am a student at CU…and the link to that recording of Bob Milliman is blocked by CU’s filtering servers…it says “Organizational policies prohibit access to this page.” Apparently this content falls under the following statement in its Acceptable Use Policy: “The University reserves the right to define and enforce appropriate regulations to ensure that [access to network and computing resources] is consistent with the University mission.”

By Cheryl

March 30, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this

No HDT, you have missed the point. I am not on the Cedarville side. I just find it funny that when this recording was on other websites it was removed within 12 hours. I read this myself on Thefacebook. I wonder how Cedarville does it?

By Adam

March 30, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this

I want to start off by saying that some of those who have left comments should be ashamed of themselves. Perjorative terms such as “Gestapo” and “Neo-Con” do not do much to further a healthy mature discussion of this issue. With that said, let me go on record as saying that professors like David Hoffeditz are a gift to any institution. As an alumni of Cedarville University, I can honestly say that David is a brilliant man who cares both about his work in academia but more so about his students. He is, unapologetically an evangelical conservative. He also has a temper, just like any normal human being would. I don’t doubt that there were perhaps unprofessional statements made by Dr. Hoffeditz. However, the course of action taken by the University seems to be rather similar to using a baseball bat to squash a fly. (Terminating a tenured and highly beloved professor due to unprofessional statements seems a bit much, doesn’t it?) Perhaps what troubles me the most in this situation is the rigidity which both sides, emergant and fundamental, seem to display. As Christians we believe in a mystical body of Christ. (Essentially an extended theological family.) What both sides seem to have forgotten is that, just as no body part is the same or does the same thing, no parts in the body of Christ are the same. Cedarville should strive to establish an environment which encourages both progressive and conservative ideologies. It is only through interaction with both sides of ideology that the body of Christ makes significant progress. At the same time, Dr. Hoffeditz should remember that while he is entitled to disagree with others’ opinions and stances, he -as a Christian- should do so with grace and love. (NOT with anger and/or unprofessional statements.) Essentially, both sides need to learn to say: “I respect your opinion, though I choose to disagree with your ideas, I still embrace you as a brother/sister in Christ.” Then again, those are just my own thoughts I suppose…..

By HDT

March 30, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this

It seems that the ghosts of Christians past are coming out to haunt the narrow colony of intolerance known as Cedarville University. Both the fundamental and emergent views do not seem to exclude anyone from the realm of Christianity or the love of Christ. Only in their narrow corner of the world would someone be fired for holding different views.

By adam

March 30, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this

HDT, I think I agree with what you say, just not so much how you say it. First, there are in fact some amazingly good people at Cedarville. By and large the folks I know on the Cedarville faculty/staff are amazingly fine people. Please, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, the administration at CU is highly restrictive. If you go to school or work there, it’s something you know going in. Is it right? No, in my opinion it’s not. However, it’s something that all those who go to or work for Cedarville are aware of. They made the choice to be there, they should be prepared to abide by the rules there. Also, let us not forget that Dr’s Hoffeditz and Mappes did break university policy by personalizing their attacks on fellow professors. While that in and of itself does not seem to merit termination, it does not leave them without guilt or need of reprimand. Finally, let us all remember that regardless of whether we identify as Christian or not, all who post on here have a prime opportunity to show the respective powers that be at Cedarville what truly respectful and substantive free speech can accomplish. (And, for the record, should you think I have an obligation to Cedarville or align with their views, trust me, nothing could be farther from the truth.I simply subscribe to a little concept called: Grace. Trust me, it’s a nifty thing…)

By Robert

March 30, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this

Adam’s quote: “Drs Hoffeditz and Mappes did break university policy by personalizing their attacks on fellow professors” Statements like this may impeach the credibility of everything you have written. While just one example, this statement is completely false — the grievance committee found that this was not the case and never happened. Any unprofessional and ill-tempered actions were found to be in the administrations court in every count, hence their recommendation for reinstatement.

By Martha

March 30, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this

Stephanie has done an incredible job on an ultra-touchy subject. I am fascinated partly because I try to understand the point of view of the fundamentalists even though it doesn’t make sense to me. My mother was Southern Baptist but we went to an American Baptist church. She was not a fundamentalist and always explained creation as something that was put in a framework that people 2,000 years ago could understand. I interpret it as not unlike the parables of Jesus - using literary allegory to make a point. Kind of like the destination is more important than the ride you took to get there. Nonetheless, I do try to understand why many Christians find literal creationism vital to their beliefs. In some ways, this story about Cedarville is more than the sum of its parts. If the professors were terminated unjustly, it doesn’t matter who is “right” about their beliefs. Sometimes people knock the DDN for various reasons, but Stephanie Gottschlich has produced a world-class (and to my estimation flawlessly unbiased) treatise on an issue I would have never have imagined possible in Cedarville.

By Oldprof

March 31, 2008 12:03 AM | Link to this

You know that they regret? Are you certain they’re not simply feigning regret? Meanwhile, I wonder how anyone can claim to be educated while insisting on such untruths as Biblical literacy. The first two chapters of the Bible contradict one another; there are so many contradictions in the many accounts of the crucifixion that it’s impossible to construct a reliable single version of the events. These facts are easily discovered by a little study (for example, http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com ) and the fact that Cedarville claims to provide education, yet cannot admit that these facts render Biblical literacy as a falsehood, ought to be argument enough for them to be refused accreditation—why should federal grant and loan money be available for this ignorance? The fact that the administration doesn’t care to honor its commitments is just more evidence to the lack of integrity in this religious subgroup.

By adam

March 31, 2008 1:09 AM | Link to this

Oldprof, your bile is affecting your judgement. In as much as I can, I respect what you say as it is your opinion and you are most entitled to it. However, I must disagree. If you are quite so learned on Biblical matters, you will be quite aware that the first chapters of Genesis (I assume you are speaking of Genesis when you say the first two chapters of the Bible?) are from two entirely different source documents. (Chapter one is priestly, Chapter 2 is Yahwist.) Of course there are differences, different authors = different interpretations and focus’. Now, with that said, do I agree that Cedarville is wrong to preach literal plenary inspiration to its students? Yes, absolutely. Though I am a Cedarville graduate I do NOT hold to literal inspiration. (I also attend a seminary which does NOT hold to literal plenary inspiration. Just to show that not all Christian schools are “ignorant.”) Is the Bible authoritative as a book of faith? You bet. Is it a history book? Heck no. (Though we have a goodly ammount of backup literature through sources such as Josephus, Philo, and even the gnostic movement.)With that said, before you make a grandiose statement about Cedarville’s accreditation, you might do well to check out Cedarville’s academic reputation outside of the theological realm. (To be succinct, it’s pretty darn good.) However, I will say, I agree with you in that the actions of the administration at Cedarville do not seem to align with what they claim to believe. Though, again, the administration is bound to confidentiality so we would all do well to remember that when casting judgement.

By Adam

March 31, 2008 1:21 AM | Link to this

Robert, Thank you for the correction. I welcome it. My statement was based off of a conversation with a current Cedarville professor who is quite acquainted with the case. (Though that does not make this person flawless by any means.)Again, thank you for the correction!

By Become a Baptist...no thanks

March 31, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this

Whatever your views of this are, one thing is clear…Baptists sure do seem to fight a lot. Their fights are almost always pride related…”I’m right, and you are wrong.” I have not found that testimony one that is urged in any Biblical text. Shame on both sides for such pride and arrogance.

By Shirley T.

March 31, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

Evil, darkness flees to the corners. Kick out the truth, then you don’t have to look at it. Do you know what I mean? You will.

By Abu Dhabi

March 31, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

I find it disappointing to see that some here are using this situation to level ignorant attacks against Christianity. I pity those who think they’ve debunked Christianity for good by asking where Cain got his wife from. (Hint: Incest is a social construct that wasn’t always condemned) Unfortunately, those who decry Christianity as fairy tales are the same people who respect Tom Cruise for his “beliefs”. They are the same people who believe in reincarnation. They are the same people who are devotees to Francis Crick, one of the men who discovered DNA, who theorized that “aliens” left a ball of primordial goo and started the evolutionary process called life. Let’s save the attacks against Christianity for a different place. What’s going on at Cedarville is truly sad. Not because someone lost his job, but because as Christians our primary goal is to make God look good. We’re stewards of his reputation. People form opinions about God based on the behavior they see in Christians. What is unfortunate is that Cedarville isn’t making God look good to an unbelieving world.

By SAREAM

March 31, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

Jesus said he was the Good Shepherd and that His flock new his voice. Voice equates to sounds/words; His words equate to the Bible. People don’t believe the Bible because it is truth and truth hurts. There is no such thing as a conservative Christian; one either believes the word of God or you don’t.

By Shirley

March 31, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Thank you SAREAM and Abu Dhabi for your very eloquent and easy to understand comments. This is for those people who think they are smarter than God: Unfortunately, some people didn’t bother to get to know the author of the Bible before attempting to spew their “beliefs” about it. You can’t understand the Bible unless the Spirit of God leads you into understanding. You can’t do anything without the Spirit, even worship God. Don’t worry, that’s in the Bible, too.

By jnull

March 31, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

y would some worry ?

By jackie

March 31, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

Y would only a few worry ?don’t sound rite !

By Eric the Equalizer

March 31, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

Stephanie Gottschlich’s report on fundamentalist Baptists firing two Christian professors from a local religious college appeared on the Sunday Metro & State section’s front page of the Columbus Dispatch under the headline “Bible profs’ firings leave college unsettled” (Mar. 30). I feel that some comments are in order. The Bible is not God, as even the most strident Bible thumper will confess (usually), so I wonder if Gottschlich’s statement, “But to fundamentalists, questioning the truth of the Bible is blasphemous…” might have been better phrased to read, “… the Bible is sacrilegious.” Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary (www.m-w.com) offers these definitions: first, blasphemy: “the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God… the act of claiming the attributes of deity” and, second, sacrilege “a technical and not necessarily intrinsically outrageous violation (as improper reception of a sacrament) of what is sacred because consecrated to God… gross irreverence toward a hallowed person, place, or thing.” Perhaps that’s splitting hairs. But Gottschlich certainly gave these people too much credit when she wrote, “Fundamentalists take a historical view…” when she should have written “Fundamentalists claim to take a historical view of the Bible’s truth and apply its statements literally.” Their pet doctrine of inerrancy is actually a relatively recent invention spawned by a series of books published in the early 20th Century under the title The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth. Gottschlich continued saying the college “has been fundamentalist, or orthodox, since becoming a Baptist institution in 1953.” More accurate phrasing would have said they’ve been “either fundamentalist or orthodox” since fundamentalism is not orthodoxy (although some fundamentalist probably told Gottschlich otherwise). A key to orthodoxy can be found in survey data published in 2002 by Nashville’s Glenmary Research Center under the title Religious Congregations and Membership in the United States. The center found just over five million religious adherents in our Buckeye State including roughly 150,000 Jews, Bahais, Muslims and Unitarian Universalists. Ohio’s Christians include over 2.2 million Roman Catholics, United Methodists and members of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the United Church of Christ. Together, these four denominations make up over sixty percent of Ohio’s Christians. My understanding of Roman Catholics is that they teach not scriptural inerrancy but rather papal infallibility in speaking ex cathedra, for example translating into the Magesterium, or the Roman church’s teaching, the Bible’s inspired and inspiring revelations. The United Methodist Church’s fifth Article of Religion, titled “Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation,” states that Methodists believe the Bible contains everything “necessary to salvation” but do not mention the terms “inerrancy” or “infallibility” nor at all imply their concepts. The Presbyterian Church (USA) describes the Bible as “a collection… that together tell[s] the story of a group of people bound by a common faith in God” but, again, say nothing about inerrancy. The United Church of Christ’s Constitution says the UCC “looks to the Word of God in the Scriptures, and to the presence and power of the Holy Spirit to prosper its creative and redemptive work in the world” and “claims as its own the faith of the historic Church expressed in the ancient creeds and reclaimed in the basic insights of the Protestant Reformers.” The UCC’s 1981 Statement of Faith makes no reference to inerrancy or infallibility. The ageless faith of Christians is expressed every time congregations recite the ancient creeds, principally the Nicene Creed and the Apostle’s Creed. The Apostles’ Creed, which Christians have been reciting since the 700s, makes no mention of the Bible. Neither does the earliest version of the Nicene Creed.

By crazy right

March 31, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this

baptists=hypocrites’

By Bannerman

March 31, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this

I cannot believe the ignorance put forward by some of the “Cedarville people” here. How about looking at the other side of the coin, and displaying some common sense and love for those in position of authority? http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/

By Jeremy Sherwood

March 31, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

I was taught by Hoffeditz in my New Testament class at CU, so I know him personally. He is a phenomenal professor and teacher, passionate as they come. But as passionate about his teaching as he is, he is also passionate about his beliefs—to the point where he would openly ridicule co-workers, Cedarville administration, and anyone else that questioned him. His tendency to do this was divisive, to say the least. The majority of the campus at this time doesn’t even know about the issues going on, nor do they know about the controversies popping up in newspapers recently. Also, given the fact that Hoffeditz would slam fellow faculty in class, in front of students, it seems to me that these “theological issues” are just cheap cover-ups to hide a much deeper personal struggle of bitterness within Hoffeditz himself. Cedarville had strong grounds to do what they did, aside from the cover-ups and lies.

By Anonymous student

March 31, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

As a current student of Cedarville, I find it extremely disappointing that this is the story that is making the front page headlines of the DDN. Why not talk about the $25,000 we are collectively raising to build a home to house 12 orphans in sub-Saharan Africa? Why not talk about the countless students that voluntarily gave up their spring break in order to serve on a missions trip either here in the U.S. or somewhere abroad. Why not talk about the fact that US News & World Report ranked Cedarville 3rd out of all Baccalaureate Colleges in the Midwest Region? Yes - don’t get me wrong, this situation apparently deserves attention due to the severe controversy it has caused not only on CU’s campus and now in the public’s eye; I just find it extremely unfortunate that we have chosen to focus and bring into the spotlight the negative happenings on a campus on which so much good has happened over the years. I want some answers just like everyone else does, I just wish that we would at the very least remember the good that Cedarville does. As a Christian, I find it unfortunate that this message of distrust/hatred/etc. is being displayed to non-Christians. It definitely sends the wrong signal to those that don’t have a relationship with Christ - I don’t believe that this situation accurately represents the way we, as Christians, should act, think, or behave. So on behalf of all Cedarville students, I apologize for the negativity that is being shed on this situation that has potential negative impact on people’s views of Christianity. I urge you to keep in mind that every single organization/business/etc. has their own problems; please just at least allow yourself to take into consideration the good of Cedarville and not necessarily just the bad.

By Freedom of Speech

March 31, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

These students are adults and yet you expect them to follow the administration like dumb sheep? Did Jesus not say to test the spirit? 1 John 4:1. I suggest you listen to the recording, especially 1:17 into the recording. Bob Milliman berates a student yet you expect people to treat facalty such as this with “common sense and love for those in position of authority”? Students now come from another generation. A generation where they do not “love” professors that say things about their character, especially when students are the paying customers. If you don’t have students, you do not have a university. 1:17 into the recording Bob states that students recording meetings is “unethical, unprofessional, unchristian, illegal”. Kudos to these students for having the strength to challenge him and the university! Illegal recording? Maybe Bob should Google laws in Ohio concerning recordings before he plays lawyer and teaches information to students that is inaccurate. I think the biggest slap in the face is when Bob tells the student on this tape that students such as he “demonstrated you don’t have the maturity to handle these things”. Is Bob a licensed psychologist too?

By Freedom of Speech

March 31, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

http://dodownload.filefront.com/9889484//7ab4e4ba7aaddb6de3fe4998fc80ca267771fda491af41290a2e5702b00661d041c373375eb6189f

By Frank

March 31, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this

“Why not talk about the $25,000 we are collectively raising to build a home to house 12 orphans in sub-Saharan Africa? Why not talk about the countless students that voluntarily gave up their spring break in order to serve on a missions trip either here in the U.S. or somewhere abroad.” Because there is a small but really nasty group of people who want to see this argument and issue stay alive for as long as possible. It’s basically ‘if i am going down, they are going down with me’ Just read some of the comments here. People encouraging disrespect of professors, they claim there is nothing wrong with secretly recording a good-faith conversation, etc. This is the kind of garbage the school has to deal with anymore.

By Freedom of Speech

March 31, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this

Yes Frank, ignore wrong doing because it will go away and it doesn’t effect you. After all you are not one of the two men who lost their job. I suppose you think Martin Luther was a “really nasty” man too. I think it is wonderful that Cedarville collectively raised $25,000 to build a home to house 12 orphans in sub-Saharan Africa however, that is not the issue, is it? The recording would have been junk if there was nothing on there to start with. I never encouraged disrespect of professors, only to question. Besides it looks like the SOME of the administration does enough disrespecting for both sides.

By Kevin

March 31, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

AS a current student of CU, I can say that I haven’t been brainwashed or influenced negatively by my profs. Some of them, who are directly involved in the controversy have provided a great example for how to deal with trials. The individuals who run this school are not simpletons, they are God fearing individuals who are trying to provide a place to grow both in professional areas and in our Faith. For those of you who are alumni or are parents of students, please please take what you read from places like cedarvillesituation.com with a grain of salt, the authors’ methods are not those intended to resolve or correct, but rather to divide and bring anger. Please, those of you who are on the outside looking in, be reasonable and charitable to the men of integrity that are leading this school. Cedarville is an excellent school with high moral integrity.

By Jeremiah

March 31, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this

Has anyone read a copy of the Chronicle of Higher Education? I was surprised to find that an article was written concerning Cedarville in March. I found some very interesting facts while reading the Chronicle, The Dayton Daily News, and Cedarville’s own website. Here are a few things that I think we should remember. Cedarville’s grievance committee consisting of faculty peers found in favor of Dr. Hoffeditz (he should not have been terminated). I think that they would be reliable! (Chronicle March 7, 2008) Also, contrary to the University’s assurance that “…the process has been conducted with great care and diligence..”and that the terminations came “..only after every other option has been exhausted…”, the grievance committee found that there were no “written reprimands, warnings, or plans of correction.” (Chronicle March 7, 2008 and Cedarville’s FAQ: Recent Personnel Decisions). The bulk of the committee’s criticism was against the Cedarville’s administration. (Chronicle March 7, 2008) Bob Milliman discussed confidential personnel matters with a student. Why did Bob talk for nearly 2 hours with a student about confidential matters? In most places of business an employee would get fired for discussing personnel matters. If the Administration has nothing to hide, why are they so upset about this recording and the student? (Listen to the recording its quite informative) Bob also told this student in the recording that they wanted to fire the Professors but were concerned about the fall-out and issues for re-accreditation. Now the school denies that it had anything to do about the re-accreditation, etc. Were they lying in the recording or are they lying now? (Recording and Dayton Daily News) Perhaps the most unprofessional and surprising piece to this story is that Cedarville is not following their own rules. The Administration “commanded the panel to deliver all records of the hearings to the office of the president…despite rules governing the grievance process that say that no one outside the panel should have access to the tapes and transcripts of the panel’s meetings.” They now have the only copy of the grievance process. Why would they commandeer this if there was nothing to hide? (Chronicle March 7, 2008). While Cedarville has been a great school and has done many wonderful things as stated by many people in this blog, how long will it be great with leaders like this?

By Ex GARBC Church Member

April 1, 2008 2:42 AM | Link to this

As I read this story I am reminded of the half-joke that was spoken often when I was a child, “make like a Baptist Church and split.” How sad it is that people’s careers, reputations, and young minds will be so damaged over such trivial issues. Ten years from now no one will even remember what this brew-haha was all about. I am a graduate of one of CU’s GARBC sister college, and after 20-plus years I still have not yet recovered. Fundamentalists do such incredible soul damage with their absolutism, their false piety, their demand for adherence to “orthodoxy” (which despite what they would tell you is always a moving target), and the unending lists of standards for doctrinal purity. How sad that in these debates love, compassion, and tolerance are thrown out the window. These institutions become so immersed in their arguments over the particulars that they lose sight of the teachings of Christ. “They will know we are Christians by our love?” Hardly.

By Truth

April 1, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

“Jeremy Sherwood” is not a student at Cedarville University and is not listed in the private alumni directory under that name or any other name. That fake post is simply more evidence of the private army of yes-men working on behalf of the administration at Cedarville University, distributing disinformation about anyone in opposition to their theological views in order to level the playing field. Mappes and Hoffeditz NEVER spoke against any professors in or out of class — let us remember who the real professionals are and why the grievance panel ruled against the administration.

By Fake Truth

April 1, 2008 11:00 PM | Link to this

That is interesting because I couldn’t find anyone named “truth” in the alumni directory either!

By Truth is Truth

April 2, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this

Mr. Fake Truth, no one can pull ANYTHING over on you! Your comment doesn’t make sense, nor is it a clever discovery. The above bloger doesn’t claim to be a Cedarville student as “Jeremy Sherwood” has done. Perhaps some reading comprehension classes are in order? However, from the sound of things you may have to take them at Bob Jones.

By Truth Faker

April 2, 2008 12:08 AM | Link to this

Milliman claims to care for these men and the students, but the TRUTH is pretty clear in the tape. You can see that he was preparing for the student to quote him (by basically saying any ‘interpretation’ would simply be just that—his interpretation of what milliman said. But what milliman didn’t prepare for was a recording of his actual words.

By More True

April 2, 2008 7:37 AM | Link to this

Consider taking a few minutes and read: http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com very interesting!

By Freedom of Speech

April 2, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

Interesting site, who is the author and administrator?

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

TO: Eric the Equalizer and “Progressive” Professors—If you don’t believe the Word of God, the Bible, (“the Word was made flesh and dwelled among us”) don’t attempt to teach it and make yourself look ignorant. Don’t call yourself a believer, either. You are neither a teacher nor a believer. There is nothing progressive about stupidity. If you simply do what the Word teaches, ask the Spirit of God to guide you in understanding, you won’t get confused and become “progressive.”

By Don't Bother

April 2, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

Don’t bother asking, you’ll never be told. Those sympathetic to the administration at CU operate in total secrecy because they’d hate for their reputation to be held responsible to their peers once they are eventually proven to be on the wrong side.

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Hey Kevin, a house divided cannot stand. Uh, just because someone comes in with their “progressive” smarter than God approach, does not mean you shouldn’t stand up for the TRUTH, or the WORD OF GOD is not capable of being anything but the TRUTH, God cannot lie, holy men of old were led by the Spirit of God and wrote down the Word of God. Okay, you either believe it or you don’t, and no amount of trying to talk over people just to hear yourself talk will ever cover up your ignorance.

By Freedom of Speech

April 2, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

Interesting site, who is the author and administrator? I tend to take information more seriously on web pages when I know who creates and manages them. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

TO: Ex GARBC Church Member, how loving is it to allow someone to dwell in mud when they could actually KNOW God and HIS TRUTH, the WORD OF GOD. How can you say it is unloving to tell the truth? Let me know when you find yourself on that wide path (you know what I’m talkin’ ‘bout?)

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

Interesting site, who is the author and administrator? I tend to take information more seriously on web pages when I know who creates and manages them. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

By Frank

April 2, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

The love displayed by baptists in this forum is astounding. cedarville needs to abandon the denomination completely and become an independent christian university. it’s baptist in name only anways since most students do not want to or do not have that kind of background. leave the hate behind!

By Jenni

April 2, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Again, DDN readers never cease to amaze me the way they can get off topic in their comments. I suggest you all hop in your cars and drive across the Ohio River to visit the Creation Museum.

By Jeremiah

April 2, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

Frank, won’t removing “baptists” from the University’s name hurt funding?

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

And I suggest you sit down and read a good book, or books, “The Bible” actually read it word for word. Ask the Spirit of God to guide you in understanding. I know it gets boring sometimes with all the begottens, and you might have to get your dictionary or concordance out once in a while, but read every single word. Forget what you have been told about the Bible by so-called “scholars” or people who think too much of themselves. Honor God by actually reading what He has to say before you teach or spew your opinions about how He really doesn’t mean what He says. Tell God (it’s called praying) you are sorry for adding or taking away from his Word. Then you will have a chance to redeem yourselves.

By More Truth

April 2, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

Read: http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/ Though I agree that it would be nice to have a name w/ the site … Bannerman will have to do for now.

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Why doesn’t this person share their name? I have found that all of the other websites dealing with this issue have provided names. Why read something so in-depth and time consuming if there is not an author or someone to account for and defend the information provided? This makes me think that someone in the administration is running the page.

By Frank

April 2, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

It’s not the administration. it’s the government. they have black helicopters too.

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

Good one Frank, you got me! I am very glad to see that you provide educated and adult like responses.

By Frank

April 2, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this

You are asking for it. you are making ridiculous and irresponsible comments. what evidence do you have to prove what you said? why are you focusing on who is writing instead of what was written?

By Matt

April 2, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

Whoever is posting as “Question for More Truth” why are you not revealing your own identity? You are a hypocrite to demand that someone else posts online under a real name while you post under an alias. To use your own words, I tend to take information more seriously on web pages when I know who creates and manages them.

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

TO: the student JEREMY—I’ll bet your professor was defending the Word of God. Too bad a so-called christian college kicks out professors for defending the TRUTH. Did you know Satan is the god of this world? Looks like he is the god of this college, too. Who controls what is taught at your college, is it based on God’s Word, or man’s interpretations of God’s Word?

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

verbatim: “We did not want to take these actions before our accreditation visit because we felt … because, you know, if everyone was stirred up there’s going to be this problem with accreditation,” Milliman says in the recording. “We were told if you don’t issue contracts before the visit there could be trouble. (Faculty) knew we weren’t going to cause a furor with terminating people before the NCA came.” AND “When asked about Milliman’s statements in the recording, Cedarville said in its e-mail to the Dayton Daily News that the NCA visit did not affect the timing of the personnel decisions.” Okay, is it just me or is someone lying here?

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

Matt, please read again what I wrote. I never asked you to give me your name and personal information. I also never �demanded� that the person running the cedarvilleliver provide me with their name. What I did write was �Why doesn�t this person share their name?� Also the quote you took from my blog doesn�t fit since I never provided information. As for �Frank� and his treat �You are asking for it�, what are you going to do to me? Besides didn�t you just write several lines up to �leave the hate behind�? Sharing my name is irrelevant since I am not posting anything that I claim to be factual; I am simply asking questions. In response to your question �why are you focusing on who is writing instead of what was written?� let me ask you something, when was the last time you wrote or accepted a paper without citations?

By Frank

April 2, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

“Frank, won’t removing “baptists” from the University’s name hurt funding?” Good point but higher education should not be about funding but should focus on high quality learning. As numbers of baptists go down at Cedarville i hope the school becomes less dependent on people who write checks and will use tuition mostly to drive operating costs. The school should be a Christian school not a Baptist school (with a capital b)

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

Matt, please read again what I wrote. I never asked you to give me your name and personal information. I also never “demanded” that the person running the cedarvilleliver provide me with their name. What I did write was “Why doesn’t this person share their name?” Also the quote you took from my blog doesn’t fit since I never provided information. As for “Frank” and his treat “You are asking for it”, what are you going to do to me? Besides didn’t you just write several lines up to “leave the hate behind”? Sharing my name is irreverent since I am not posting anything that I claim to be factual; I am simply asking questions. In response to your question “why are you focusing on who is writing instead of what was written?” let me ask you something, when was the last time you wrote or accepted a paper without citations?

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

sorry I meant irrelevant not irreverent.

By Barnes

April 2, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

The author of Cedarville Liver will not divulge who they are because it would ruin their reputation to be known as the webmaster of a fraudulent website. Half the arguments on that site are improperly based on the false notion that those who were terminated were “at-will” employees — they were tenured. Huge difference. The rest of the arguments are based on three student statements that cannot be verified with actual names (see a pattern yet?); two were anonymous from this blog and the third comes from the engineer quoted in the Dayton Daily article, the same individual who well tell you that he was misquoted in the paper and doesn’t believe Hoffeditz or Mappes ever spoke about anyone while in class and were both professional in their actions. I guess when you’re postmodern you can simply create new evidence in its absence. It is infinitely amazing to see how fans of the CU administration will try so desperately to level the playing field by alleging that those who were terminated behave with same level of incompetency as the administrators. I think they forgot who, at the end of the day, is actually responsible for the reputation and direction of the school. Whoops!

By Jeremiah

April 2, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

Thank you Frank for making me aware that this is a formal blog and that the word “Baptist” should always start with a capital letter. By the way you might want to remember what you are teaching others since 12 lines up you wrote “baptist” using all lower case letters as well.

By It's not just the University

April 2, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this

imho There seems to be more issues in Cedarville than just at the University: The Village is poorly managed. Just take a drive through town and then take a drive through other Ohio towns with universities the same size and you’ll notice the difference immediately. Also, the church associated with the University has some serious issues after bringing in a pastor from California that a large percentage of the members didn’t agree with. Overall it seems the leadership of the university and entities controlled by people affiliated with Cedarville University (the university, Grace Baptist Church, the Village mayor and council with the mayor and 5 of 6 Council members affiliated with the university and/or the church) are imploding after several years of building up animosity inside and outside those entities. It’s too bad because the other 99% of people in Cedarville are wonderful people and really want to see the community prosper. Maybe it will begin to really prosper if the people remove some of the dead wood in leadership roles at the university, the church and the Village. Let’s hope things change for the better and soon!

By Zach

April 3, 2008 2:27 AM | Link to this

Shirley— Here is the deal. I would love to have a professor teach God’s word—unfortunately, the way he teaches it is going to be his interpretation of it. You said that Satan is the god of this world—do you not think that he is going to do whatever he can to get in the middle of Christians learning more about their God? Do you think he’s gonna give up just because they are reading the Bible? Think of any two Godly men you know. Really Godly men. Ones that you respect, and ones that teach the Bible, as you say. Now, ask yourself, “Do they agree on every single theological and doctrinal point of the Bible?” Answer the question honestly—you will find the answer to be ‘no.’ But, if they were teaching the Bible, not their interpretation of it, there would be nothing to argue about, would there? Wouldn’t it all just be kicks and giggles, with no arguing? Or do you think that the God of the universe, perfect and holy in every way, desired for us to dig to know Him? After all, He is above us, and His ways are not our ways—which means we won’t always understand it. And when we don’t, it is interpretation. The thing to remember here is that interpretation is dependent on faith. The Holy Spirit reveals truth to us, and we must have the faith, and the humility, to recognize the wrong from the right. The fundamentalist side really bugs me on this. If you can understand all biblical truth, than why is there so much debate? Why is there so much anger, hatred? It’s because we don’t agree, some of us are wrong, and we don’t want to let go of our pride long enough to recognize that one small fact. We are not perfect, nor will our doctrine ever be. It needs to be amended—cautiously, but amended nonetheless. If it is not, are we not saying that we have it perfect? Who are we to say we are perfect? This is not about inventing truth—it is about having faith in the Spirit to reveal it to us, and having the sensitivity to Him to recognize it. The biggest problem that people have with Cedarville is that they are reading newspaper articles that were spurred on by Professors and people who are angry about what is going on. People are not hearing the whole story. They don’t want to—they want to hear the truth how they ‘want’ to hear it. Not how it really is. I wonder if when I get to heaven if God is going to look at me and say “Well done, Zach, you completely ignored what Paul said about dividing my Bride, the church, and spurred on your own agenda to get what you want.” I would hope he would say, “You chased after me, selflessly, trying to know me more and more, because you realized that your place was on earth, a sinner saved by grace, trying to show me to people. You didn’t push them away with your agenda’s, and what you wanted. But you drew them to Me.” I’m not there, I’m not perfect, and I won’t ever be—but grace will lead me through the times that I fail, and spur me on to not make the same mistakes again. And seriously, you are wasting your time if you are going to pick apart every word that I said—which some will do, inevitably. Once again, I’m not perfect. I fail. We all do.

By Branson

April 3, 2008 8:19 AM | Link to this

Mr. Seelye your comments are good and constructive, just remember that the reason why this ‘debate’ has turned into arguing instead of mere disagreement is because it began to be mixed with unethical and illegal actions by the administration that led to a mere silencing of any opposition. People who simply ‘disagree’ were removed and labeled as divisive and false rumors were started that they were troublemakers. While this is all unfortunate tThe truth will all come out eventually, so just keep praying and keep watching.

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 8:34 AM | Link to this

Hi Zach, I appreciate your reply. To answer your question, “If you can understand all biblical truth, than why is there so much debate?” The Holy Spirit will lead you in understanding, but it is like a puzzle that we put together. Faith in God has to be an individual thing, and everyone must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. (I don’t think that professors who are teaching the so-called “progressive” approach fear God, they don’t believe His Word, and they shouldn’t be teaching it—that is my pet peeve.) I believe that one who walks in the light they are given by God, are not going to “know” the same things that God has revealed to someone else, because it is revealed as the Spirit reveals it. I remember asking God why Mary M. wasn’t able to touch Jesus after his death, but doubting Thomas was allowed. Did God prefer men over women? Later when I was reading the Bible, I found the blood would be contaminated if touched by man. Thomas didn’t touch Jesus until after Jesus offered his sacrifice to God, and then returned, and there was no blood, when Thomas touched Him. God did not prefer men over women, and Almighty God reached down to little ‘ol me and answered my question. That is the same “Spirit” these high-necked professors should use when teaching about God.

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this

Branson’s words ring true. Institutions that are suppose to be teaching about God set up boundaries on what is allowed to be believed, and you can’t make God’s Word fit your little box. Also, don’t add to or take away from the Word of God. Satan is definitely causing havoc in all of the churches with his “progressive” God doesn’t mean what He says doctrine. You will progress yourselves right out of your salvation. How can you “know” you are saved if you really aren’t sure God means what He says????

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

I want to address: “You said that Satan is the god of this world—do you not think that he is going to do whatever he can to get in the middle of Christians learning more about their God? Do you think he’s gonna give up just because they are reading the Bible?” YES, YES I BELIEVE THAT SATAN WILL INCREASE HIS DECEPTIVENESS AND TRY TO HURT THE CHURCH AS MUCH AS he IS ABLE. THE CLOSER I TRY TO GET TO GOD, THE MORE SATAN FIGHTS ME. THE BEST WAY TO GET ME TO PRAY FOR SOMEONE IS FOR THEM TO ATTACK ME, THEN I HAVE TO PRAY FOR THEM. The deceptiveness, the lack of love, the kicking out of the 2 professors because they actually teach God’s Word is true and not questionable, ALL OF THIS COMES FROM THE SAME PLACE, GUYS. My words may seem harsh, but believe me I don’t want to see anyone go to hell.

By truthis

April 3, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

Branson … take some time and read http://www.cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/ Don’t just believe everything you’ve been reading or hearing.

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

Maybe this college should drop the “Christian” part of the name and say what you really are doing is teach anti-christ. Who do you think you are kidding? You can rationalize all you want. Someone lied about the timing of the firings: on one hand you had every intention of honoring their contracts, then firing them a few months later and recorded on tape: “(Faculty) knew we weren’t going to cause a furor with terminating people before the NCA came.” I went over to your blogspot and read through about half of it…yeah, you should drop the “Christian” part.

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

ONE MORE THING, VERBATIM FROM THE END OF YOUR BLOG: “Surprisingly, nobody asked the question “Whatever happened to Sin?” It may be legal in Ohio to secretly record a conversation between two parties, but is there a difference between legal and wrong? I haven’t seen a single self-righteous critic so far condemning the recording.” OKAY, WHY DO THE CHEATERS ALWAYS ACCUSE THE VICTIM OF THEIR DECEIT OF SHAMEFULLY FOLLOWING THEM? THERE WOULD BE NO “CHEATERS” TV SHOW IF THERE WEREN’T ANY CHEATERS OUT THERE. No one would car