Stephanie Irwin Gottschlich writes about higher education.Home > Blogs > On Campus > Archives > 2008 > April > 15 > Entry
Gun-toting students want to bring weapons on campus
(April 16, 2007: In front of Norris Hall at Virginia Tech, after shootings resulted in multiple fatalities. AP photo.)
Gun-toting students legally permitted to conceal their weapons should be allowed to bring their guns on campuses in order to protect themselves against shooting rampages, assaults, rapes and armed robberies.
That’s one idea, anyway. And it’s being pushed by a lot of college students. And some Ohio lawmakers.
As the nation looks back to one year ago Wednesday, when 32 students, faculty and a lone gunman died in the horrific massacre at Virginia Tech, everyone is asking: How do we prevent this?
While colleges across the country have increased security focused on preventing and responding to future shootings, a movement fighting for the right to carry concealed weapons on campus is gaining momentum.
I wrote a story in the Dayton Daily News about a national student advocacy group called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus making its case to lawmakers that gun owners with concealed-carry licenses should be able to protect themselves while on a college campus.
The group of college students, faculty, staff and parents formed in Texas the day after the Virginia Tech shooting, and quickly took root in Ohio. Three of its nine national leaders are from Southwest Ohio campuses: Miami University, University of Cincinnati and College of Mount St. Joseph.
The group has swelled to nearly 26,000 members with 300 chapter in 43 states in recent months, doubling in size since February when 15 people were shot and five killed at Northern Illinois University. Ohio’s 22 chapters outnumbers all states, including Texas and Utah.
But campus police say more guns on campus is not the answer. The idea is a little disturbing to advocates of gun control here and around the country because it’s gaining popularity and has re-ignited debates over restrictions on carrying firearms. The Brady Center Against Gun Violence calls the movement “No Gun Left Behind” and wrote a report bearing that name last May.
Both sides of this issue seem to make good cases for their point of view. Read about them below.
Meanwhile, read the second story in the Dayton Daily News about a few proposed Ohio bills that seek to loosen the conceal-carry restrictions for campuses and other state-owned properties.
Stephen Feltoon, the Midwest regional director for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, says that allowing concealed-carry permit holders to bring their firearms on campus is not about playing hero or vigilante or replacing police officers.
“This is about self defense,” said the 2007 Miami University-Oxford graduate. Students for Concealed Carry plans a protest for next week, during which students will wear empty holsters to classes. About 3,000 people have pledged to participate, Feltoon said.
Campus police can’t respond to a shooting fast enough to protect a student, but a licensed gun owner could defend himself in such a situation, Feltoon said.
But the idea has plenty of critics.
“I believe that we are more likely to have more problems with having guns on campus than in having an active shooter,” said Miami University Police Chief John McCandless, a 28-year police veteran from Michigan who has been at Miami for four years. “We should be focusing on prevention.”
The critics of such laws cite a number of potential problems, including making it hard for the police to figure out who’s the bad guy in a situation where armed citizens are also presenting guns.
McCandless also echoes a worry held by campus police departments around the country: That people at 21 years old (the legal age required for concealed-carry permits in Ohio) are barely out of adolescence, and could respond dangerously to typical campus frustrations like poor grades or disagreements with a boyfriend or girlfriend. Students these days certainly have their fair share of stress and turmoil.
“I don’t want to paint the picture that CCW holders are irresponsible or minimize the pain that families went through, but I don’t prescribe to the notion that if we had more armed people on campuses they would be safer,” McCandless said.
That’s an argument that the students, who are trained to handle their guns, say is “bull,” said Michael Flitcraft, a University of Cincinnati sophomore and one of the group’s national leaders. CCW permit holders don’t cause incidences off-campus, so why should a college be any different, he argues.
Anyone who legally conceals-carries a weapon is able to defend himself in a movie theater, bank, shopping mall or the street, “responding to the one trying to take your life with equal or greater force,” Flitcraft said. “These CCW licenses… are only for dealing with serious bodily injury and death.”
“You have to think about it from a college students standpoint,” he said. “These people (in the school shootings) have been corralled into a room and executed one at a time. I have one legal option: Throw my physics book at him? My laptop?”
By the way, there’s a hole in the donut here: What you may not know is that it’s perfectly legal to carry your gun openly, on your waist in a holster for example, without a license. If you have a gun, you can do that. But, do it on a college campus and you’ll probably get arrested for inciting a panic.
On a lighter note: Check out this take on what the founding fathers might have had in mind with the Right to Bear Arms by my favorite television cartoon, Family Guy.
Permalink | Comments (59) | Post your comment | Categories: Higher ed oddities, Higher education politics, Students and Student Affairs
Comments
By cheyenne
April 16, 2008 12:15 AM | Link to this
NO! College students should not be allowed guns on campus. Campus security needs to be better and more walking police patrols.By MRA
April 16, 2008 5:43 AM | Link to this
I would want one if I were still in collage. But I can see many problems that could come from just one single out of control person who wrongfully uses the weapon.By Mike
April 16, 2008 5:55 AM | Link to this
Should the criminal have more 2nd Amendment rights than Trained Law ABIDING Licensed citizens? Can you think just a little?By Dustin
April 16, 2008 6:00 AM | Link to this
Given the general immaturity of students, drinking that takes places on college campus’s and no matter how well trained the knowledge that in live fire situations a person who is 90% accurate on the range drops to the single digits, No, it’s a bad idea to allow students of faculity to carry weapons. I agree with the police chief who see’s many more issues evolving from allowing conceal carry than it could ever possibly solve.By Chris
April 16, 2008 6:02 AM | Link to this
These collage students are old enough to go to war to defend our country, so yes, they should be able to carry guns while they are at school. I feel that if they get the training and license we should let them carry firearms.By Protect Free Speech
April 16, 2008 7:29 AM | Link to this
It amazes me the reasons people come up with to disarm law abiding, background checked, and trained people on college campuses. Until schools provide each student with a personal protective detail it cannot guarantee safety or protection for any one individual. Police can only respond to calls for help – how many people were killed at VT in a few short minutes because police could only respond to calls for help and not react immediately upon the first shot? You are the only person that can ultimately be responsible for your own safety. Having a CCW is taking responsibility to protect yourself, and if needed, someone else who is defenseless. As someone who just applied for a CCW permit, I pray that I am never faced with a situation to shoot someone to save my own or someone else’s life. However, with the unpredictability of these shootings in society, I know that I am trained and prepared to do so when lives are in danger.By Pearl
April 16, 2008 7:45 AM | Link to this
It comes down to responsibility. I have a CCW because I have the responsibility to protect myself, my family, and those who cannot protect themselves. If a campus does not allow me to have my CCW weapon, then they have to be responsible. Putting a few rent-a-cops walking around campus with less training than I have myself is not the way to go.By smoke @ mirrors
April 16, 2008 7:57 AM | Link to this
Yes students should be able to carry guns.If a nut job walks into a classromm and starts shooting at least there is a possiblity someone might take him out before others are killed and saving lives and maybe his/her life as well.By Joe
April 16, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this
How long does it take to get a cop to the scene of an assault with a deadly weapon? It takes only a couple of seconds to stab someone, and by the time the cops get there, it’s too late. CCW holders have extensive training in the responsibilities of carrying a firearm, and we’re not all a bunch of wild-eyed fanatical killers.By Doco
April 16, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this
I have an honest question because I don’t know what is required to get a CCW license. Is there any kind of mental competency exam for a CCW, or is it just training on how to properly use it? For instance, could the Virginia Tech shooter have obtained a CCW with his history of depression? My concern is that ability to properly operate and secure your gun does not necessarily denote competence and responsibility.By Barry
April 16, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this
The bad guys who want to kill you are not going to follow the anti gun laws, it just makes their jobs easier if the sheep are unarmed and depending on unarmed security to protect them. If you want to depend on campus security to protect you against a crime you are making a loosing bet. Most of the time police and security react after the crime, and that is going to do you a lot of good after you have been shot. I am sure the paper work will comfort you a whole lot.By Pearl
April 16, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this
For CCW you must pass a course which covers CCW laws and proper firearms handling. You then take the certificate from the course to your local Sheriff where an extensive background check is performed and you are photographed and fingerprinted. If your background check comes out clean then you get your CCW. This is the same type of background check that your local police officers would go through.By Patricia
April 16, 2008 8:46 AM | Link to this
I cannot see how having more guns helps anyone. College students are often immature and upset over breakups, drinking etc. I know when I was getting divorced it was a good thing there were no weapons around. A heated moment can lead to real tragedy. Let’s not add to it. Instead have better mental health services and the ability to remove disturbed students from the classroom. Remember the problem is with the guns in the first place. Too many and easy access.By Rodriguez
April 16, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this
Firearms are already on college campuses illegally. Some of these people that bring these guns to schools are bad. Very rarely do these people engage in school shootings, but sometimes it does happen. Any law that prevents good citizens from carrying a concealed firearm somewhere only applies to those good citizens that follow the law. These laws are not followed by criminals. I do think that certain areas should not allow people to carry firearms. Places that I feel that it is appropriate are places in which all those that enter are searched such as secure areas of an airport. I am not saying that CCW on campus is necessarily the best solution, but leaving people without legitimate ways to protect themselves against an armed attacker isn’t good either. So if CCW is allowed it could create a problem and result in injury or death and if it isn’t allowed some good people may end up injured or killed. Some people will lose either way. For me personally if it was absolutely necessary I would like to have the tools necessary for me to me deal with an armed attacker if confronted. Other people may prefer to wait for the police to arrive to deal with the situation and that’s okay too. What people need to understand is that not all people with CCW permits are good, and yes there is a possibility of bad things happening but to limit those who are capable and willing is not fair to them.By Mike Hawksbig
April 16, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this
What most of the idiots commenting here fail to realize is that if you are unstable or a basket case because you got dumped because youBy Pearl
April 16, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this
Speaking words such as “I know when I was getting divorced it was a good thing there were no weapons around” speaks volumes of your own personal mentality. I agree that having bette rmental health services would be a great thing. We need to cure the people (since guns don’t kill people on their own), not take away the tools necessary for defense. If mentally unstable people start using cars to kill numerous people are we going to start banning those? I mean there are too many and easy access to those as well.By Mike Hawksbig
April 16, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this
you are fat and ugly like Patricia, there is nothing preventing you from going on a rampage now. This is about sane people being able to stop your clock with a legal gun and well aimed bullet before you kill anyone else!By Jim
April 16, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
It amazes me that people actually think arming students (or teachers) is a good idea. More guns is not the answer, and any suggestion that war and college are similar indicates just how low the thinking processes have fallen. Students are at universities to learn, not wage war. The reason these stories make the news is because they are unusual. Gun accidents, on the other hand are too common to be newsworthy. Emotions run high about things like sheep, but those comments have no basis in fact. The truth is that the student armed with a weapon should be the first one put down by authorities (in the interest of student safety). Do you think they would be any safer from the criminals? Just another case of “I want to, therefore, it should be legal for me”. Grow up people. And, think. That’s why you’re going to college.By hardcases
April 16, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
About three years ago, a concealed-carry permit holder murdered three professors at the University of Arizona. A concealed-carry permit is no guarantee that the permit holder is sane. In Ohio, the identity of permit holders is exempt from the public records law. If guns are allowed on campus, anybody can can carry a gun and there is no way for the public to know whether or not they have a license to do so. On my campus it’s not unusual to hear a cell phone ring during a class. If students forget to turn off their cell phones in class, how many are going to forget to use the safety on their guns? The accidental discharge of a firearm in a crowded classroom is likely to have severe consequences. Alcohol abuse by inexperienced college students who are learning to drink is too common on campuses. Do we want to add firearms to the mix?By Skywalker
April 16, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this
As long as the CCW person has met all the requirement of the law, why not? Remember, Va. Tech was a “gun free zone” but not to a lunatic bent on killing as many people as he could. I’d prefer to die trying to defend myself or others than just cowering like a dog and be killed. Let’s hope the politician’s be the responsible ones and do the right thing. Yes, for CCW on campus.By Pearl
April 16, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this
Well its a good thing the laws are not up to these people who are so anti-gun. Of course these will be problems with 1 in 100,000 people who have a CCW. Just like those Dayton cops who touched those girls from Stebbins. The public does nto need to know who has a concealed carry - that’s the whole idea. When CCW first came to Ohio, newspapers were able to print the names of CCW holders. They did and you know what happened? A local woman was killed. She had obtained a CCW license to protect herself from her estranged husband. He just happened to be reading the paper that listed her name and address (all of which was not listed before publicly) and he killed her. I truely believe the only way you anti-gunners will learn is to have something hit close to home. When your loved ones end up dying because of some crazed person and the fact that the establishment banned you from protecting yourself don’t start crying… that’s what you wanted.By Ben
April 16, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
I agree with prevention, not guns as the best answer. It’s ironic that there’s so much concern over mental stability and mental health services and such, but we’re allowing the state to shut down the only mental health facility (and training ground) in the area. The government’s focus is on saving money, not providing services that may prevent another tragedy. We should be fighting the closure of Twin Valley! It doesn’t seem that important until something bad happens in our area. What do they always say about hindsight??By nogunsoncampus
April 16, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
Do the math, out of all of the universities in this country how many have had a student go on a rampage with a gun in the last 100 years? I would say less than 1 half of one percent, which is about the same odds you have of winning the lotto or getting struck by lightning. This is knee jerk reaction by the radical right to try and make the US the wild west again!By Shane
April 16, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
Wow were to begin…. First of all I am a combat veteran and have had my CHL permit since the fist week they were issued. I carry 24-7 everywhere I go. I have also have 3 other state permits which allow me to carry in 40 out of the 50 states. I believe fully in our 2nd amendment rights. I really don’t think there should be no carry zones for those of us who have gone through all the legal steps to carry our weapons. When was the last time you heard about a robbery or a murder at a gun shop ? You never here about it WHY? because the bad guys know people there carry guns and they will shoot them were they stand. Point is the thugs or bad guys look for “Gun free” zones to commit crime this to them is a easy target for them to commit crimes against unarmed people. What really makes me ticked of is there are folks that are totally against those of us who carry weapons… BUT what they don’t realize is the life it may save may very well be there’s or one of there loved ones. It is a proven fact that the police cannot protect you 100% of the time and you must take proper measures to protect yourself in the event of a grave danger situation. These folks that are against us who carry weapons live under the security that the 2nd amendment provides them and question the methods it is provided them. I personally think we should have for those of us who choose a Federal CHL permit allowing us to carry in all 50 states and were ever & whenever we choose. As far as students,teachers,school employees, YES they have met all the requirements so why not ? Look at all the school shootings,work place shootings…. that is one of the places you are more likely to have a conflict. We have made huge strides in this area, but it needs to fine tuned & all the liberals need to take a chill pill and quit hugging the trees and realize it is our inalienable right to possess,carry & protect ourselves under the 2nd amendment. REMEMBER THE LIFE OR LIVES IT COULD SAVE COULD BE YOURS OR YOUR LOVED ONE’S ! I consider carrying my weapon like the spare tire in your vehicle… you carry it everywhere you travel yes ?…. you hope you never need it but it is there if you need it. I go out of my way to avoid conflict and using deadly force is a huge responsibility but if myself or my family are threatened and deadly force is the only option out GUESS WHAT the coroner will be getting a call. I think another issue is the general public is uneducated about the CHL laws and maybe better public awareness would help ? Everyone thinks a police officer is ok to carry a weapon why ? because he might need to shoot a bad guy ? we agree on that ? OK now what makes you think that you might not comes across that same bad guy and you will need to use deadly force to defend yourself ? I will leave you with that thought.By dave
April 16, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this
Lets set the record straight. The CCW training required is a joke. 50% of the class were scared of the weapon they brought to class. 25% were “Rambo or thugs” and 25% were willing to pay the $100 to buy their rights from the Gov’t. The class barely covered the basic rules of engagement. Some beleive you can kill to protect your car stereo. Not in Ohio. Participants of the class were playing with the pencils and talking to their buddy while the instructors were going through the motions of “Classroom portion” of the training. (A nice part time gig on the weekend) Once the range portion of the class began it got scary. As the instructors were explaining the do’s and don’ts of the range, one gun fired down range followed by 3-4 others because they heard a shot. I watched one guy scratch his temple with a loaded .380 with his finger on the trigger. I beleive it is everyones right to carry open or concealed anywhere. So many stores do not allow you to carry and the criminals know the rules. Parking lots and places requiring you to get in and out of your car are the most vulnerable. The concept of not being able to protect yourself because of non violent criminal record is ridiculous also. Once you’ve become licensed to carry, chances are you will be committing a felony the first year due to illegal carry because of restrictions you were not aware of. Lets get back to the reason why we have ” The right to bear arms.” It was put there to allow us to protect ourselves from our own Governing agencies. Now we are allowing them to write the rule book!By Stephen J. Feltoon
April 16, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
I am the Stephen Feltoon who was interviewed. Regarding people “snapping”, what’s to stop them from going home, getting a firearm, and illegally bringing it onto campus? The law? You think someone intent on murder’s going to come to campus and say “whoops, can’t carry here, never mind”? Are you really that naive? As for college “kids” drinking and all, licensees can already carry into off-campus parties, plus being intoxicated and in possession of a firearm is a crime here too. If CCW on campus was such a dangerous concept, why don’t we hear about problems at the 11 colleges that allow it? Campus shootings ARE rare, thankfully, and I’ll be the first to admit that, but what about rape, armed robbery, and assault? These are crimes that happen far more frequently on campuses and using lethal force in those situations may be prudent. An MU police officer conceded that even a 2min. response time wouldn’t be fast enough if there was an active shooter in our student center in the middle of the lunch hour. If you don’t like guns, don’t own or carry one, but who are you to say that my preferred method of self-defense is bad? As for the licensee in Arizona, that report has NEVER BEEN CONFIRMED. Besides, I can show you a handful of cases where a non-licensed individual illegally brought a concealed firearm into a “gun-free” zone and committed murder. Yes, it’s terrible that there’s a need to carry a firearm for self-defense and I’m all for getting people the help that they need, but until this world becomes a utopia, there are going to be bad people out there and I’d like a chance (as minute as it might be) to defend myself adequately.By mike
April 16, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
As a college professor for 43 years I might be a bit apprehensive about handing back failing papers to students who may be “packing” in their backpacks.By dave
April 16, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this
Shane, you have it exactly right. When was the last time anyone read in the paper about a cop being robbed at gunpoint? The badge doesn’t scare the criminal, it’s the 9MM he carries in the open! The only thing about your message that is scary is the 24/7 stand. Things happen and sooner or later you could become the next felon in your hometown because you chose to exercise your 2nd ammendment right (obligation is a better term in my opinion) but because your car breaks down in a carry free zone. As you wait for assistance, a cop wants to know what you have under your coat, or to be coming home from dinner with your family where you had 2 glasses of wine, legally speaking you have committed a felony. Whether you get hit for it or not is beside the question, just running the risk of losing your right on a technocallity is total crap. I’m curious how many people have been caught in a situations like this, and how much money was generated and how many lives were taken through turmoil. It took a long time for FOP to come around to accept the idea of CCW in Ohio. To what degree do you think they will go, to take another gun off the street?By hardcases
April 16, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this
The Michigan State Police keep statistics on concealed carry permit holders that are arrested and convicted of crimes and whether those crimes involved guns. The figures are available on their web site. Although the number of criminals with concealed carry permits is probably a small percentage of the total number of permit holders in Michigan, it is also clear that a concealed carry permit holder doesn’t necessarily have a halo. Crimes committed by permit holders in Michigan include everything from recklessly discharging a firearm to homicide. Florida had a scandal a few years ago when it was learned that a loophole in the definition of “convicted criminal” allowed some killers and even armed robbers to obtain concealed carry permits. A concealed-carry permit doesn’t make a person either a saint or a skilled marksman.By Stephen J. Feltoon
April 16, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this
“mike”: Are you presently concerned about handing back failing grades? Probably not. Why not? What about the possibility that the student is illegally carrying or that they could go back to their residence, get a firearm, and bring it on campus? I highly recommend you come hear me speak next Thursday at 7pm in Walter 135. This will be an informational lecture, not just propaganda. You (and anyone else) are more than welcome to ask questions and voice your concerns and hopefully learn a little bit.By Police for carrying
April 16, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
I am a police officer and combat vet and I fully support the carrying of concealed weapons on campus. I took an English class at Sinclair and the topic of guns came up. The campus allows cops to carry off duty, so I always had my weapon with me just in case. One of the students, who clearly by the discussion did not know anything about guns, said she would be afraid if she knew there might be a gun in the room. I never told anyone I had my gun with me or that I was a police offier, so she was none the wiser. Why was she so afraid? The teacher pointed out there were already guns being illegally carried on campus by criminals, and they just didn’t tell anyone, so why did she assume there were no guns around now. I would have been able to protect the class if someone had started to shoot, but what about the hundreds of other classrooms on campus. I have friends that I target shoot with that are combat veterans and excellent marksmen, they have been hunting and shooting their whole life. They have their CCW permit and take the responsibility very seriously. To say these people would be reckless with their guns or shoot innocent people is silly. The Miami U chief needs a reality check. I know when I am working my city, I will not be able to be there when you need me, I will be there about a minute or more later. You have to protect yourself first. That is what CCW is about. I am not Rambo, I am a man. Being a police officer does not make me superhuman. If I have to go into an active shooter I might miss a few shots also, that is the risk you take to save as many lives as you can. Regular practice helps, but I’ve been to war and know how it can be. People need to let the good citizens take care of business, it is the only way to stop the shooter at the moment. And the tales of wild west shootouts will not happen, they try to say it will in each state as the CCW laws are passed, it has NEVER happened. Ohio has had CCW long enough for any critical thinking person to see that. Do the research yourself and be open minded. And yes I am a life member of the NRA as well.By shane
April 16, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this
Dave: Thanks for your support. As far as being a felon in my home town let me touch on that…. If I were to find myself in a gun free zone disabled in my vehicle I would dis-arm myself and secure my weapon in my lock box which is TSA approved and bolted down under my vehicles seat. I always scan the entrance of any establishment for no gun signs and I will not enter unless I have no other choice but to do business with said establishment(after securing my weapon in my vehicle and very close by) . By the way the establishment has to be properly posted on the front doors not inside or in a hard to see place & If a CHL holder finds they are in a carry free zone or as us CHL’ers call them “criminal protection zones” it is only a trespassing violation unless it is a federal building,police station, school,etc.. and as CHL holders we know the official building we can’t enter under arms & any CHL holder that enters such place should lose their permit for life and go straight to jail ! The difference is a business that is posted & not clearly posted is were some confusion could come in. But hey I’m not going around saying I’m carrying a weapon look at me !!! & I’m in your store. Chances are you are going to be gone by the time the police arrive anyway & another thing is CONCEALED CARRY your weapon is out of sight so no one should see it anyway. And if it is seen for a brief moment how does that person know that you are not a off duty police officer ? they don’t. To get back on your comment I am very care full on my were abouts and on high alert and watch my six. People think that “more guns” is not the answer…. well let me tell you a weapon in the hands of a law abiding citizen can do wonders until the cavalry arrives. I assure you if the situation warrants deadly force, I will be the guy sitting on the curb among the dead bodies,empty shell casings, and three empty magazines, weapon locked back lying on the ground at my feet waiting for the police & coroner to arrive. I will survive and have my day in court but the main thing I will not fall victim to some street punk-thug that wants to rob me for my wallet & cell phone.By dpkdayton
April 16, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this
To the professor who might be afraid to hand back a failing paper because someone might be “packing”. For a professor you’re not very smart. There is nothing preventing an angry student from coming on campus now and blowing you away. Don’t you fools get it? Gun laws are only followed by the law abiding. Criminals don’t care if the campus is a no-carry zone.By jerry lee
April 16, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
What kind of social and morality standards has this country now have, that you would even have to ask that question? I guess this a NRA society now.By Shane
April 16, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this
dpkdayton wrote: To the professor who might be afraid to hand back a failing paper because someone might be “packing”. For a professor you’re not very smart. There is nothing preventing an angry student from coming on campus now and blowing you away. Don’t you fools get it? Gun laws are only followed by the law abiding. Criminals don’t care if the campus is a no-carry zone. VERY WELL SIMPLY STATED !!! BRAVO !!!By Alice
April 16, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
Colleges should have the right to make the decision for themselves what their own policies are, but I would personally not feel safer knowing the person sitting next to me has a gun, even if they are trained, and I would encourage colleges to not allow it, but to increase security and safety standards. I believe in the rights of gun-owners, just not a free-for-all. There has to be restrictions.By Swede
April 16, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
I have a CCW and I do carry were I can. My workplace is a gun free zone which limits my rights. Some CCW cources train people better than others. Where I took my training the legal part of the course was taught by a city prosecuter and the range part was taught by an off duty cop. If you did not score 70% of your shoot on target, they would not issue you a certificate for CCW. When you got done with the course, you knew what you can and can’t do and you had a moderate ability to handle a firearm. I also compete weekly in a league for tactical shooting aimed at CCW holders. We are put through scenarios that might actually happen in real life. Anyone who participates become a very competant shooter very quickly. We have shooters who range from 14 to 60+. By the time the 14 yyear old can ge a CCW, he will be able to defend himself without question. He already out scores some of us oldtimers. When I was in college I was on a small campus with 800 in residence near East St. Louis. At least 50 of my classmates workes as guards in the area and all were armed and kept the weapons on campus. There never was a problem with any one of them on campus. One guy did fire blanks on a 4th of July night as fireworks. He did say it was funny watching the dopers in the bordering farm field run like rabbits though.By robin
April 16, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
I believe most professors would refuse to teach in any university that allowed students to carry guns onto campus. Most undergraduate students are immature and irresponsible. Passing a concealed weapon class won’t change that.By Eric
April 16, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this
This idiotic to even consider. Next I guess we’ll all strap on .44’s to walk the streets just like the Old West. Man…what progress we’ve made.By Concerned Taxpayer
April 16, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
To address Eric’s comment on open carry. Open carry in ohio has been upheld as legally permitted in a number of cases. The only problem with it is that it draws such a negative reaction from both uninformed public and in many cases police via improper arrests, that CCW was the best compromise at the time.By Bear
April 16, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this
Perhaps Tim Roth would stand still to be the first one taken out by the nut with the gun in a college classroom. That is if he were even smart enough to get into a classroom in the first place. I suppose he’s safe though, he’s too dumb to make it.By Anonymous
April 16, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this
Everyone should have the right to protect themselves. However - I agree with whoever said that college students may not be mature enough to handle carrying a gun. You can’t always know if someone is emotionally stable enough to carry regardless of their certification. I am not only an employee of a University, but a student as well. I would be a nervous wreck if I thought there were students in the classroom with a gun. Who’s to say the Faculty or Staff wouldn’t take advantage of being able to carry a gun on campus? There are plenty of unstable people in that capacity as well. There is no easy view on this situation!By tlc
April 16, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
I served in the army in combat and would not want the majority of my bretheren to be allowed to carry weapons on campus. When the first shot is fired all hell breaks loose and with a barrage coming from the “audience” the probability that a great many others would perish increases. A college is in place to learn the power of logic and logical expression not to cultivate fear. Sadly it looks like we need more metal detectors in our lives not more guns, at least until we all respect each other as persons with a right to our existence.By Dean
April 16, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this
While I DO agree that everyone has the right to protect themselves, This law gives INCENTIVE to bring guns to class. More guns, without question will bring more violence and problems will arise on campuses that were once peaceful Arguments and disputes will have a new method of being solved. I will never understand why proponents of CCW arbitrarily trust that permit holders will act responsibly. (I’m talking even those with good intentions) Just because you’re a licensed driver, doesn’t mean you won’t cause car accidents Let’s now allow children the ability to (legally) end other children’s life.By Dean
April 16, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
While I DO agree that everyone has the right to protect themselves, This law gives INCENTIVE to bring guns to class. More guns, without question will bring more violence and problems will arise on campuses that were once peaceful Arguments and disputes will have a new method of being solved. I will never understand why proponents of CCW arbitrarily trust that permit holders will act responsibly. (I’m talking even those with good intentions) Just because you’re a licensed driver, doesn’t mean you won’t cause car accidents Let’s now allow children the ability to (legally) end other children’s life.By Dean
April 16, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
While I DO agree that everyone has the right to protect themselves, This law gives INCENTIVE to bring guns to class. More guns, without question will bring more violence and problems will arise on campuses that were once peaceful Arguments and disputes will have a new method of being solved. I will never understand why proponents of CCW arbitrarily trust that permit holders will act responsibly. (I’m talking even those with good intentions) Just because you’re a licensed driver, doesn’t mean you won’t cause car accidents Let’s now allow children the ability to (legally) end other children’s life.By Concerned Taxpayer
April 16, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
One concepts taught in my CCW class was to treat everyone as if they have a gun - translation - treat everyone with respect and to go out of your way to avoid confrontation. Remember that real life is quite different from what Hollywood shows. Effective & responsible (combat situation) handgun defense takes place at an optimal range of 10 to 20 ft. If you are farther away than that the decision to shoot vs retreat is debatable based upon the attacker and the weapon they have. (i.e. someone with a knife can’t hurt you from 20ft away) Properly trained CCW holders aren’t going to be shooting from across a lecture hall into a crowd of students. And likewise, if you are across the lecture hall, you are in limited danger. Basic rules of firing for those facing serious bodily harm is - only point the weapon if you are prepared to shoot the target, only put your finger on the trigger when you are ready to fire & only shoot the target if you know you can hit it.By chris
April 16, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this
Thank god lawmakers will never listen to most of the people on this forum. The vast majority of students would feel much safer knowing that students all around them would not be carrying concealed weapons. I met a lot of jackasses in college who would easily pass a CCW class. And I definitely would feel less safe knowing they were carrying a 9mm to Philosophy class.By Terry
April 16, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this
Giving college students guns is not smart…They have enough to deal with! Drinking and guns don’t mix! I think putting prayer back into schools or a moment of silence before each class would help more…We never had these kinds of problems when we had prayer in schools….God help us in America when we feel we have to let our college kids walk around w/guns and they aren’t allowed to pray…What happened to our religious freedoms in America? WE are fighting a war right now for other countries to have their freedoms but some of ours have been taken away…Our religous freedoms!By another supporting cop
April 16, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this
I’m a cop and a student at a local university and I support the right of people 21 and over to carry concealed handguns.By UDFreshman
April 16, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this
The fact about gun control is that it disarms no criminals, only victims. A “Gun Free Zone” Sign will not stop a potential mass shooter in their tracks.Over the past decade we have seen an alarming increase in school and campus shootings, which shows that these “Gun Free Zones” are limited in effect. I think it is time that the opposite approach—with armed students—is tried.By Javajake
April 16, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this
Only law breakers are protected by anti gun laws and policies. The right to carry levels the playing field for law abiding citizens.By shane
April 17, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this
Terry: What are you a Moron ? I am a religous man but let me ask you a ? here ….. while you are praying and you hear a gunshot, the next thing you feel is a warm feeling in your chest, you then start choking on your own blood from a colasped lung from your sucking chest wound, you start feeling light headed from the loss of blood you then pass out as the blood leaves your extremities to try to sustain your vital organs only to bleed out & die were you are lying on the floor. Now all this happened in about uh 3-5 min. How does it feel to be dead ? it could happen that quick…. I have seen it first hand. Now it is possible that another person because you would never carry a weapon will draw their weapon and take out the threat with exteme prejudice and spare your life. Now you are alive thanks to a law abiding citizen who saved your sorry butt ! Oh and by the way the campus Police Barney & Andy are now on scene after the whole thing is over wondering what the heck just happened. Get a clue !By Swede
April 17, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
If you have a CCW license, you can’t legally carry were alcohol is served. If you are under the influence of drugs or booze you ar in violation of the CCW and can not carry a weapon. College students who have a CCW will end up being the “designated drive” at parties. If they drink, they willl not carry. If they do, they are committing a felony and will loose the right to carry if convicted.By Jim
April 18, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
It amazes me that people believe that students are so much superior to “Barney and Andy”. It also amazes me that people believe that students reacting in an instant to an armed threat will have skills so much greater than the intruders so as to overcome their thought out plan without any combat training. But, I almost laughed when Swede said that the felony in the future would outweigh immaturity in the present. I would laugh if people didn’t believe such utter nonsense. Someone needs to check the statistics on people killed with their own weapons. The cops (if they really are)writing in should know better.By Jim
April 21, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this
There can be valid arguments for both sides as to whether students should be allowed to carry weapons on school grounds in the state. As a responsible citizen with a permit, I find no fault with allowing them. The students who would carry will be certainly over the age of 21 as required by law in order to obtain said permit. By this age, most would certainly be in their last year, and I believe repsonsible enough to carry this responsibilty out. The average student would not most likely enjoin this right, but if one who did was able to end a situation or protect someone when confronted by a shooter like the one in Virginia, would we then find fault if they were to nd the rampage before someone could be hurt? The average school shooter most likely depnds on the fact that his intended victims would be unable to defend themselves, and are at his disposal to shoot. Could it be different if, knowing that there might be an armed defender among his/her intended victims, and be able to possibly stop him before he carries out his actoins, would they then reconsider their actions? The student who chooses to apply for said license has to undergo the same training as I did, and this is not undertaken lightly. I am sure that the shooter who wishes to do such heinous and utterly disturbing acts does not undertake such courses. If it were you or your child, and someone protected them, as the police are reactionary by nature, not protectionary, would you then object? Just remember, if it could have saved even one life, or more, someones child would still be alive today…By the Strawboss
April 25, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
If some pyscho starts shooting on a campus that allows guns, one or more students will attempt fill this guy full of holes. Now the cops show up and don’t know who the real shooter is. Guess who gets shot? I don’t know of anyone who has successfully protected themselves with a gun, but I know of plenty of accidents involving them. Don’t let the dramatics fool you. You’re more likely to be killed by a loved one than some stranger on campus.By glockman
April 25, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
I think campus police should not carry guns as more guns just means more chances for a shooting. They all can carry tear gas thats good enough. It is really amazing how the fear of weapons has been pushed onto our society. Its a shame their are so many left wingers that know so little.By beavmetal
May 2, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this
Security is an illusion. Feeling safe is delusion. Drinking laws were changed because teenagers weren’t trusted to drink moderately. Driving laws were changed because teenagers couldn’t be trusted to drive safely. Before we say teenagers can be trusted with guns let us let them drink. Let us let them drive without restriction. Let us be a free society again. Let us stop trying to protect everyone and everything and be free. Passing laws on the illusion of safety, on the delusion of being safe, doesn’t protect anyone. It just creates more bureaucracy that leaves us feeling trapped and restless. America is about being free, not being safe! Wanting to carry guns is a symptom of feeling trapped and restless. Besides real warriors don’t need guns. Stab your rapist with a pencil. Run a rampant shooter over with your car. Real Americans can make a weapon out of anything. Guns are for wussies (but if you are a wuss, it is your undeniable 2nd amendment right to carry a weapon).